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Faurexus wrote:You have to be trying to get a racist reading out of LoTR.

The Shire is not, by any means, an ethnostate, simply because it is dominated by one race. The important thing is they aren’t closed to visitors (almost all of the time, unless they have no manners). Sam, who is perhaps the most admirable character of the bunch, has no bloodline to speak of. Also, technically it’s more present in the Hobbit, but the Elves and Dwarves are not charitable to each other. Boromir is a noble and rather ambiguous, as is his father.

Orcs are evil because they are enslaved, not because Orcs are all evil. Tolkien was not a racist and this is a smear.

As for a lack of diaspora in towns, his world lacks the diaspora of modern times because it is not technologically advanced or globalized (things Tolkien shunned).

Edit: Also, Aragorn, I should mention, is already not a pure human, and very deliberately marries an Elf. The line of Gondor itself isn’t all that “pure”.

The Most Serene Republicans has already answered this pretty well. I'm not suggesting that Tolkein intentionally set out to write racist propaganda, but the text is steeped in the values and assumptions you'd expect of an early 20th century Oxford scholar. It shouldn't be all that surprising, for instance, that of the various forms of Men the good guys are white and modeled on European cultures in contrast to the Easterlings, Haradrim and Southrons (who I think are somewhere described as weak-willed and easy for the enemy to dominate).

Where LotR goes beyond the default colonialist mindset it comes from is in its pessimism. What comes through isn't so much that some races are better than others as a total rejection of modernity, industrialisation and progress. The history of the Third Age is a story of steady decline into mediocrity and the elves that represent everything that's best are disappearing over the sea. Literally nothing is getting better with time and his characters wander among the ruins of things that cannot be replaced or improved on. Writing a decade or more before the beginning of mass immigration into Britain Tolkein doesn't see the social change he laments as primarily racial - if he'd written a little later he might have done. Look especially at Treebeard and the scourging of the Shire. I don't see a fascist, I see a bewildered old man turning his back on any possibilities the future might offer.

On the points you raised, the bloodline of the royal house of Gondor has indeed been greatly diluted, and as a result the country has steadily declined, its borders have shrunk and it's lost control of some of its major cities. Most epic literature uses the trope that the heroes of the past were greater than the heroes of today, but it's unusual to explicitly tie that to ethnic considerations. Tolkein writes about this at length but it's economically summarised in the screen play - the blood of Numenor is all but spent. Aragorn does indeed marry an elf, and the decline of the royal bloodline is partly reversed by adding ancient High Elven ancestry. It's not that mixing is bad, it's that older is always better.

Sam is certainly a commendable character. He embodies the pastoral idyll, he's the dependable working class that acknowledges its betters and is content with how things have always been. Denethor and his sons are certainly portrayed as having some virtues that Men of lesser race don't have, but they have fundamental flaws that serve to highlight the greater virtue Aragorn possesses because of his royal blood.

Uan aa Boa wrote:It shouldn't be all that surprising, for instance, that of the various forms of Men the good guys are white and modeled on European cultures in contrast to the Easterlings, Haradrim and Southrons (who I think are somewhere described as weak-willed and easy for the enemy to dominate).

I'm just gonna add that the dark-skinned races of men are the ones who allied with Sauron. As I said, I have no doubts that this isn't intentional and Tolkien's writting is far bigger than these aspects, but they're still there, even if just as a consequence of who the man was.

Now, if we're gonna have a yikes medieval fantasy racism moment, can I just mention the Khajiit from the Elder Scrolls lore? I love them catboys as much as the next guy, but they're literally just a bad caricature of Romani

anyway guys: i am here since halloween 🎃 and i am happy to have finally found a good region :)

Don't forget to vote for your favorite photos in the Photo Contest! We have just a day left until the results are announced.

https://forms.gle/YPgxwR5RbkB1jf5M8

hey Middle Barael my man, do we have an ambassador on The Leftist Assembly? I know they have one here, is this a situation where only one ambassador is already enough or could we have one on each side? Because if it's the latter, I think I'm interested in being the ambassador for that region using Gura and Matos

Well, I just watched a video entitled "2020 sucks" by Sysiphos55 and it really made me reflect on just how screwed humanity is. However what I took away from the video is that if humanity is f*cked, then we can say we tried to unf*ck ourselves.

The Most Serene Republicans wrote:No problem, I'll count your vote as Serenity because they're the more archetypical social democratic party on the list. Also, I noticed you're a serene republic too now! Loved the change, hehe

Middle Barael has always been a Most Serene Republic, although earlier in the year (OOC when I received custom pretitles) King Solomon and PM Nuya introduced a law to change it to “the Most Serene Eco-Republic”, which easily passed, and so now we are “the Most Serene Eco-Republic of Middle Barael

Nation of Ecologists wrote:Well, I just watched a video entitled "2020 sucks" by Sysiphos55 and it really made me reflect on just how screwed humanity is. However what I took away from the video is that if humanity is f*cked, then we can say we tried to unf*ck ourselves.

I just watch the Netflix comedy/documentary “Death to 2020”. It was amazing

The Most Serene Republicans wrote:hey Middle Barael my man, do we have an ambassador on The Leftist Assembly? I know they have one here, is this a situation where only one ambassador is already enough or could we have one on each side? Because if it's the latter, I think I'm interested in being the ambassador for that region using Gura and Matos

I believe we may, though I’m not sure who. I know Garbelia was interested in it, but I forgot if they actually took the spot, and there may be somebody else who has it as well.
——————————————
If we are talking about Misogynistic Fantasy, I’d like to add JK Rowling’s TERFism. Yes she is a supported of LGB people, but she is very anti-Trans and Gender-Binary.

Compare this to ATLA/LoK (Avatar and Korra), with Korra’s bisexuality (and Asami’s too), and with Kya being a lesbian. Or the Percy Jackson universe, with Nico and Will being a gay couple, and a gender fluid child of Loki, and with Apollo being bisexual too.

Middle Barael wrote:Middle Barael has always been a Most Serene Republic, although earlier in the year (OOC when I received custom pretitles) King Solomon and PM Nuya introduced a law to change it to “the Most Serene Eco-Republic”, which easily passed, and so now we are “the Most Serene Eco-Republic of Middle Barael

Oh, I didn't even notice it then

Middle Barael wrote:I believe we may, though I’m not sure who. I know Garbelia was interested in it, but I forgot if they actually took the spot, and there may be somebody else who has it as well.

Alright, so back to square one for now

Also, election season is over, the Communist Party of the Most Serene Republic now holds a majority on the councils, although not by that much. The PUP is a close second, and as I expected, nobody voted for the RF at all

Middle Barael wrote:If we are talking about Misogynistic Fantasy, I’d like to add JK Rowling’s TERFism. Yes she is a supported of LGB people, but she is very anti-Trans and Gender-Binary.

To be honest, her making characters gay in retrospect has never sat right with me, along with all the stuff she's said since about Hogwarts being LGBT friendly. Felt to me like she was trying to make the books more diverse than they actually were after the fact.

She's also tweeted that gay or lesbian kids are being coerced into becoming transgender so that they’ll become straight boys and girls. So yeah, she cares about gay people enough to stop them from unwittingly being tricked by homophobes and evil trans rights activists into becoming transgender, because that's the real reason trans people exist. I think if you use one marginalised group (that you aren't part of) as an emotive weapon to harm another marginalised group, you damage them both - and you deserve the respect of neither.

Uan aa Boa wrote:The Most Serene Republicans has already answered this pretty well. I'm not suggesting that Tolkein intentionally set out to write racist propaganda, but the text is steeped in the values and assumptions you'd expect of an early 20th century Oxford scholar. It shouldn't be all that surprising, for instance, that of the various forms of Men the good guys are white and modeled on European cultures in contrast to the Easterlings, Haradrim and Southrons (who I think are somewhere described as weak-willed and easy for the enemy to dominate).

Where LotR goes beyond the default colonialist mindset it comes from is in its pessimism. What comes through isn't so much that some races are better than others as a total rejection of modernity, industrialisation and progress. The history of the Third Age is a story of steady decline into mediocrity and the elves that represent everything that's best are disappearing over the sea. Literally nothing is getting better with time and his characters wander among the ruins of things that cannot be replaced or improved on. Writing a decade or more before the beginning of mass immigration into Britain Tolkein doesn't see the social change he laments as primarily racial - if he'd written a little later he might have done. Look especially at Treebeard and the scourging of the Shire. I don't see a fascist, I see a bewildered old man turning his back on any possibilities the future might offer.

On the points you raised, the bloodline of the royal house of Gondor has indeed been greatly diluted, and as a result the country has steadily declined, its borders have shrunk and it's lost control of some of its major cities. Most epic literature uses the trope that the heroes of the past were greater than the heroes of today, but it's unusual to explicitly tie that to ethnic considerations. Tolkein writes about this at length but it's economically summarised in the screen play - the blood of Numenor is all but spent. Aragorn does indeed marry an elf, and the decline of the royal bloodline is partly reversed by adding ancient High Elven ancestry. It's not that mixing is bad, it's that older is always better.

Sam is certainly a commendable character. He embodies the pastoral idyll, he's the dependable working class that acknowledges its betters and is content with how things have always been. Denethor and his sons are certainly portrayed as having some virtues that Men of lesser race don't have, but they have fundamental flaws that serve to highlight the greater virtue Aragorn possesses because of his royal blood.

Certainly the books totally rejected industrialization. Tolkien was a known Luddite. I find that an odd criticism, though (I realize you are not saying the books have no merit, but I just don't see why that view is super problematic. You can't pretend like those industrialization has been some resounding success and everything is better because of it). It's romantic, in a sort of pessimistic way.

It's true that Tolkien did work with some assumptions about race, probably, but he was pretty enlightened for the time (not to sound harsh and obviously not a high standard, but he was a Brit in the 1940s and not really anti-Semitic, which is pretty surprising). As for the characters all being white, the men of Bree are not and are generally good. Most of the characters in the first place are white. It's maybe not super thoughtful, but he was writing a western novel for a mostly European audience, so it makes sense, and doesn't mean he was a racist.

The Most Serene Republicans wrote:I'm just gonna add that the dark-skinned races of men are the ones who allied with Sauron. As I said, I have no doubts that this isn't intentional and Tolkien's writting is far bigger than these aspects, but they're still there, even if just as a consequence of who the man was.

The men of Bree aren't evil.

Middle Barael wrote:I believe we may, though I’m not sure who. I know Garbelia was interested in it, but I forgot if they actually took the spot, and there may be somebody else who has it as well.

I was the ambassador to TLA for a while, but I stepped down. Then I got a TG 5 months later saying I was still listed as the ambassador in the dispatch. Now said dispatch is gone, so I'm not sure another ambassador was ever appointed. If this is the case, we should check on Conch Kingdom, Sonindia, and TNP, because I resigned from those as well, and they should have ambassadors too.

Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles

Middle Barael wrote:

If we are talking about Misogynistic Fantasy, I’d like to add JK Rowling’s TERFism. Yes she is a supported of LGB people, but she is very anti-Trans and Gender-Binary.

Terrabod wrote:To be honest, her making characters gay in retrospect has never sat right with me, along with all the stuff she's said since about Hogwarts being LGBT friendly. Felt to me like she was trying to make the books more diverse than they actually were after the fact.

She's also tweeted that gay or lesbian kids are being coerced into becoming transgender so that they’ll become straight boys and girls. So yeah, she cares about gay people enough to stop them from unwittingly being tricked by homophobes and evil trans rights activists into becoming transgender, because that's the real reason trans people exist. I think if you use one marginalised group (that you aren't part of) as an emotive weapon to harm another marginalised group, you damage them both - and you deserve the respect of neither.

Also, her reliance on transparent deus ex machina for ultimate plot resolution pretty much every time is pretty obnoxious. It's been a while since I read any high/hard fantasy (Tolkien, etc), but I don't recall going "really?" with such frequency and intensity before.

And I only ever saw the movies, since Bible-sized YA fiction doesn't really appeal to me to begin with. Rowling was supposedly highly involved in the movies, so I apologize for nothing.

Middle Barael wrote:

——————————————
If we are talking about Misogynistic Fantasy, I’d like to add JK Rowling’s TERFism. Yes she is a supported of LGB people, but she is very anti-Trans and Gender-Binary.

Oh don't get me started on TERFs. I effing hate TERFs. It's a disgrace to the feminist cause, and its seems as if the entire movement is based around hypocrisy. *shudders*

Nation of Ecologists wrote:Oh don't get me started on TERFs. I effing hate TERFs. It's a disgrace to the feminist cause, and its seems as if the entire movement is based around hypocrisy. *shudders*

As with every hate movement, there are terfs who are lying and terfs who are being lied to. I hate the ones who are lying, and after watching contrapoint's most recent video I don't think JKR is one of those. But even with the best of intentions, a hate movement is still a hate movement. "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Speaking of hate, I keep thinking of this nice little discussion we just had here about how tolkien's passive racism and his other political views were reflected in his works as subtext and meanwhile... One of my favorite authors ever is Lovecraft, he wrote some of the most personally important short stories for me, and the man like... He had a cat, among other things. Let's leave it at that.

*Drives from Dominions into the Forest*

*Starts building a small pizzeria and a cottage next to it in the mountainous area*
Hi! My name is Kepler-0085, but call me just Kepler, I'm a former Dominions employee.
My friend Mastald from work will maybe arrive here aswell.
Anyone wants a Zapiekanka?
(*Zapiekanka is a Polish Pizza)
It's bio, right from my garden, even the wheat!
*Starts building an orchard and a greenhouse*
*it starts snowing*
Does anyone want a hot cacao?
Or a baked tea?
*finishes the orchard and the greenhouse*
*builds a big chicken pen with lots of space*
*Starts building a home for his winged bunnies*

Faurexus wrote:

The men of Bree aren't evil.

The men of Bree aren't black
Or did you mean the https://lotrminecraftmod.fandom.com/wiki/Taurethrim_(Faction) Taurethim

Post self-deleted by Kepler-0085.

Post self-deleted by Kepler-0085.

Well, I just got my second gold badge for International Artwork because I got Testlandia in a random pack. Crazy how that's just down to pure luck.

EDIT:

Kepler-0085 wrote:*Drives from Dominions into the Forest*

Welcome to Forest! Just a heads up, don't double (or triple) post in the future, just edit your original post and add the extra stuff there instead.

Kepler-0085 wrote:snip

Oops I think your going to get a message soon about double posting.

Terrabod wrote:Well, I just got my second gold badge for International Artwork because I got Testlandia in a random pack. Crazy how that's just down to pure luck.

EDIT:
Welcome to Forest! Just a heads up, don't double (or triple) post in the future, just edit your original post and add the extra stuff there instead.

Dr Teeth wrote:Oops I think your going to get a message soon about double posting.

fixed!

Kepler-0085 wrote:*Drives from Dominions into the Forest*

Welcome to forest! I think you'll find that we have many trees and other green things, hopefully you'll enjoy your stay.

Hey Middle Barael, I had a nice little convo with Garbelia on telegrams and they said they gave up on becoming ambassador for TLA, so I think that position is open. Can I take it?

The Most Serene Republicans wrote:Welcome to forest! I think you'll find that we have many trees and other green things, hopefully you'll enjoy your stay.

Hey Middle Barael, I had a nice little convo with Garbelia on telegrams and they said they gave up on becoming ambassador for TLA, so I think that position is open. Can I take it?

Yes. I am pleased to announce that Garbelia is our new ambassador to Antarctica, which should allow MSR to become our ambassador to TLA.

Middle Barael wrote:Yes. I am pleased to announce that Garbelia is our new ambassador to Antarctica, which should allow MSR to become our ambassador to TLA.

woooo congrats Garbelia!
Alright, I'll do some preparations on my alt Gura and Matos and then you can introduce me there as the new ambassador. I think. That's how it works right?

The Most Serene Republicans wrote:woooo congrats Garbelia!
Alright, I'll do some preparations on my alt Gura and Matos and then you can introduce me there as the new ambassador. I think. That's how it works right?

Yes, or you can introduce yourself, whichever you’d prefer.

https://www.sciencealert.com/wombats-have-cube-shaped-faeces-scientists-just-figured-out-how-they-poo-it

I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that scientists have finally worked out how wombats make cube-shaped poo.

«12. . .1,9861,9871,9881,9891,9901,9911,992. . .2,0912,092»

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