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Nation of ecologists

Cuillin wrote:What is your index? I'm curious!

Currently enjoying a very calming hot chocolate!

I plan on including, detailing and noting all major and not so major ideologies that I consider green. I've notified around 15 so far.

The Cypher Nine wrote:If there is any feedback you’d like to send on this decision please let us know.

I'm not entirely sure what to think of what just happened. On one hand we have an individual making use of symbolism associated with the far-right (and originating from a Nazi region). On the other we have what seems to me to be a pre-emptive ban. Based solely on their posts, I personally find it hard to find reasonable ground for such a ban in any of them. I also struggle to understand the reasoning behind the suppression of some posts.

To be perfectly blunt: It seems to me that emotions were running high (seemingly due to mere prospect of having an alleged Nazi in our midst and perhaps due to their lack of etiquette), and that these emotions may have unduly influenced people's actions and reactions. That is to say that I believe people may have been a bit too hasty and quick to draw conclusions.

In short, I guess I am unconvinced a banjection was necessary and/or proper, and undecided on whether or not this individual rightly can be called a Nazi.

Gotta say though, I find it somewhat interesting that they decided to move to Yggdrasil.

Ordealius, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Terrabod, and 5 othersMiddle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, Difinbelk, and Wooderland country

The Cypher Nine wrote:

If there is any feedback you’d like to send on this decision please let us know.

This may be a voyeurism or a transparency issue (I'll let you decide), but when (presumably the most egregious) posts have been surpressed, it makes it difficult for those of us who didn't see them able to tell whether lines were crossed. In any case, someone unabashedly refusing to disavow Fascism and Naziism is hopefully trolling - if not an actual supporter of hate - and needs to be banned as he was.

Girelna wrote:
This may be a voyeurism or a transparency issue (I'll let you decide), but when (presumably the most egregious) posts have been surpressed, it makes it difficult for those of us who didn't see them able to tell whether lines were crossed. In any case, someone unabashedly refusing to disavow Fascism and Naziism is hopefully trolling - if not an actual supporter of hate - and needs to be banned as he was.

Actually, you can read those posts, just hover over the post with your mouse pointer and click on the revealed spoiler button in the right corner of the box.

The most serene republicans

Nation of ecologists wrote:Phew! That was getting heated, im glad they were banned. I...guess I can say I had a direct interaction with a troller? Idk, there's nothing positive to take a way from that experience.

That dude reminded me of a classmate I had...

The first comment he made was in history class when he tried to justify that slavery in Brazil should have lasted longer so the monarchy wouldn't colapse. He also tried to deny that an anecdote told by our sociology teacher (who was black and broke, and the anecdote was about him being stopped by the security randomly in a mall because he was "dressed suspicious") was in any way racist, and we later found out he drew a lot of swastikas on his notebook. He denied being a nazi, however, because "nazism is left wing and i'm right wing", and said he just admired "nazi aesthetics". He also said that he couldn't be antisemitic because he was just "against communists, and jews are right-wing so they're not communists"; I'll let you imagine the shock when we told him about Karl Marx.

The weirdest thing about that dude is that he was both gay (he left his previous school due to life threats after a boy leaked his... very graphical nudes) and mildly autistic, and yet he was so obliviously bigoted... The amount of US-style libertarian conservatives and traditionalist monarchists among male brazilian youth is growing rapidly, yes, but nazis are very rare because being a nazi sort of implies you're white, and being white here doesn't necesarily translate to being white in, say, the US. That guy was definitely a find...

Nation of ecologists wrote:I plan on including, detailing and noting all major and not so major ideologies that I consider green. I've notified around 15 so far.

Ooooh I'm curious on how this will turn out.

Difinbelk wrote:ooh, milk or water? Ik most people say milk is infinitely better, but I honestly don't notice a huge difference between the two. Weirdly though I do notice a difference between Swiss Miss and Nesquik, not sure why

... Water? This is some pineapple-on-pizza leve of heresy right there.
Not that I have anything against heresy, but you know what I mean.

Novian Republics wrote:I also struggle to understand the reasoning behind the suppression of some posts.

Girelna wrote:This may be a voyeurism or a transparency issue (I'll let you decide), but when (presumably the most egregious) posts have been surpressed, it makes it difficult for those of us who didn't see them able to tell whether lines were crossed.

All of the suppressed posts were either double/triple posts which were suppressed after being given substantial warning (in accordance with regional policy) or in one case a spam post (just "lol"), except for the user's final post. As has been pointed out, you can view suppressed posts if you want to.

Murmuria, Einswenn, Kawastyselir, Atsvea, and 6 othersRuinenlust, Lord Dominator, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, and The most serene republicans

Nation of ecologists

The most serene republicans wrote: The amount of US-style libertarian conservatives and traditionalist monarchists among male brazilian youth is growing rapidly, yes....

*ahem Social Liberal Party* It's ironic that a party named that is one of the most far-right non-nazi parties you can find. Well, it didn't used to be like that, until Bolsonaro took charge. If im getting that right.

(I had to snip so much of that quote.)

The most serene republicans wrote:

Ooooh I'm curious on how this will turn out.

It's still in the very rough planning phases, im still not even sure how to format it. But I'll be able to work more on it in April break.

Show

Post by Ight ima head out suppressed by Verdant Haven.

Ight ima head out

ight ima head out

The most serene republicans

Nation of ecologists wrote:*ahem Social Liberal Party* It's ironic that a party named that is one of the most far-right non-nazi parties you can find. Well, it didn't used to be like that, until Bolsonaro took charge. If im getting that right.

They used to be somewhat similar to what americans would call "liberals", in that they were socially progressive. I got to meet a candidate for the state government in Pernambuco in 2018 who was, until Bolsonaro joined, part of the PSL. She was basically a lesbian entrepeneur, so the only thing she had in common with the bolsonarist project was... Well I don't know actually, because by early 2018 Bolsonaro wasn't even pro-deregulation and privatization yet...

Novian Republics wrote:I'm not entirely sure what to think of what just happened. On one hand we have an individual making use of symbolism associated with the far-right (and originating from a Nazi region). On the other we have what seems to me to be a pre-emptive ban. Based solely on their posts, I personally find it hard to find reasonable ground for such a ban in any of them. I also struggle to understand the reasoning behind the suppression of some posts.

To be perfectly blunt: It seems to me that emotions were running high (seemingly due to mere prospect of having an alleged Nazi in our midst and perhaps due to their lack of etiquette), and that these emotions may have unduly influenced people's actions and reactions. That is to say that I believe people may have been a bit too hasty and quick to draw conclusions.

In short, I guess I am unconvinced a banjection was necessary and/or proper, and undecided on whether or not this individual rightly can be called a Nazi.

Gotta say though, I find it somewhat interesting that they decided to move to Yggdrasil.

I don't see anything wrong with the ban. I think sometimes internet communities/message boards get caught up in the idea of total transparency and leniency when the sad truth is that there are trolls and idiots who will take advantage of that to stir trouble or plant seeds for toxicity. NationStates is no exception. I trust the forest rangers to do their job to keep this region safe in a turbulent time, and we should totally trust them. We couldn't have a better team right now and I think they know what they are doing. I've moderated my fair share of internet communities and utopian ideas about not using the modhammer almost never work out in the end. It is what it is.

Ordealius, Murmuria, Einswenn, Mount Seymour, and 10 othersDaarwyrth, Atsvea, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, Terrabod, The Teeth, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and Wooderland country

The most serene republicans

I have now noticed I forgot to remove the dum sticker i put on my flag for an april fools joke, which makes me think it should actually stay there

Daarwyrth

Ziotah and Riverside wrote:I don't see anything wrong with the ban. I think sometimes internet communities/message boards get caught up in the idea of total transparency and leniency when the sad truth is that there are trolls and idiots who will take advantage of that to stir trouble or plant seeds for toxicity. NationStates is no exception. I trust the forest rangers to do their job to keep this region safe in a turbulent time, and we should totally trust them. We couldn't have a better team right now and I think they know what they are doing. I've moderated my fair share of internet communities and utopian ideas about not using the modhammer almost never work out in the end. It is what it is.

I totally agree with you. In the past I was part of a moderation team of a Discord server and as long as preemptive bans were enacted and people were stopped from expressing any and all opinions the server was pleasant and nice. The moment we stopped doing that however and allowed everyone and all opinions in, the server quickly descended into a really bad place. Many people left, myself included, and from what I heard the place is today run by trolls and memers who go too far with their "jokes". Leniency and tolerance are great, but there's a fine line to walk there.

It may sound authoritarian, I naturally don't mean in that way, but I think not every opinion needs to have a platform everywhere. I think its okay if some opinions are warded off from certain places. And hateful opinions simply need to be stopped, period.

If it walks like a duck etc.

Good call.

Novian Republics wrote:I'm not entirely sure what to think of what just happened. On one hand we have an individual making use of symbolism associated with the far-right (and originating from a Nazi region). On the other we have what seems to me to be a pre-emptive ban. Based solely on their posts, I personally find it hard to find reasonable ground for such a ban in any of them. I also struggle to understand the reasoning behind the suppression of some posts.

To be perfectly blunt: It seems to me that emotions were running high (seemingly due to mere prospect of having an alleged Nazi in our midst and perhaps due to their lack of etiquette), and that these emotions may have unduly influenced people's actions and reactions. That is to say that I believe people may have been a bit too hasty and quick to draw conclusions.

In short, I guess I am unconvinced a banjection was necessary and/or proper, and undecided on whether or not this individual rightly can be called a Nazi.

Gotta say though, I find it somewhat interesting that they decided to move to Yggdrasil.

We could have waited and found out that he really was one but it doesn’t really matter if he was or wasn’t. I think its quite likely that he wasn’t. But he was using the issue of not knowing in a disgusting way to manipulate the RMB and the discussion at hand. Its quite possible and likely his entire persona is designed to get boards to be reeled in on his “Am I or aren’t I” spiel.

I believe I tried several times to steer him in a positive direction and we made clear the rules to him.

I also want to be clear that no emotions were running high. The government reached a consensus and simply acted upon the consensus. As the Deputy Forest Keeper I take responsibility for the authorization of the event, but it was done logically and with forethought.

Again, you’re free to disagree with the government’s action. We will have a retro to discuss it I am sure as well. But I wanted to provide you parts of our frame of mind.

Ordealius, Einswenn, Cuillin, Daarwyrth, and 9 othersAtsvea, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, Terrabod, The Teeth, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, and Wooderland country

Uan aa Boa wrote:Definitely a good call. I hate that because we attempt to be inclusive to these idiots, good people like Cuillin end up feeling they're the ones who are out of line. We maybe think too hard about people who don't think at all. We also spent a lot of time and indecision on the person we kicked out during the election. Sometimes I look enviously at the regions that simply smack these guys on sight and carry on with their day.Issues to consider as we plan our way in this brave and founderless new world.

Novian Republics wrote:I'm not entirely sure what to think of what just happened. etc...

Ziotah and Riverside wrote:I think sometimes internet communities/message boards get caught up in the idea of total transparency and leniency when the sad truth is that there are trolls and idiots who will take advantage of that to stir trouble or plant seeds for toxicity. NationStates is no exception. I trust the forest rangers to do their job to keep this region safe in a turbulent time, and we should totally trust them. We couldn't have a better team right now and I think they know what they are doing. I've moderated my fair share of internet communities and utopian ideas about not using the modhammer almost never work out in the end. It is what it is.

I agree with all three of you, and others who have posted. I share some of Novian Republic's misgivings on principle in the sense that I don't want to ever get to a point where we have a "shoot on sight" policy towards people. For instance, I think we had a nation named Nazi Flower Power here a few years ago or something to that effect, and they were normal, if my memory holds.

Yet this Heil-blob guy was clearly doing all of the wrong things and is also clearly somewhat "skilled" [as it were] at trying to wiggle around verbally and be coy and whatnot, and they also clearly had no purpose in being here other than to land in what is clearly a non-fascist and non-genocidal region and then play the shocked victim when people were like "hey, A, B, C, and D of yours are all pro-Nazi, either explicitly or with just the thinnest veils of 'implausible' deniability." (For instance, I was actually unaware of the Hitler Youth slogan until Verdant Haven mentioned it. Ignorance is bliss sometimes, I guess.) Once it rapidly became clear that no, this was not a scholar of ancient runes, and no, Heil-boop wasn't interested in anything resembling a coherent conversation, then clearly he had to Heil-bounce away.

Then they went to Yggdrasil, so I notified their government by telegram that we had to get rid of them, and that they should look at our RMB if they needed any more information or context. But Heil-bump sort of preempted me by posting on their RMB of their presence and wondering if they would have any trouble there:

"Hello, I'm new here. I was just kicked off a region called "Forest", wich it seems you have some sort of connection with. They called me a "Nazi" and "Troll", without any reason really. I just wanted to ask in advance if I will encounter the same problems here?"

Aside from oddly wondering whether our region is actually called Forest or not, and from pretending to not understand the concept of an embassy, "wich" [sic] is just more of their feigned ignorance, it seems a little odd to announce oneself as "hey guys, I just got thrown out of a region because I, Heil-bonk, with the Nazi-themed flag and Nazi-themed name, was accused of being a Nazi and a troll. So like, am I gonna have the same problem here? Sincerely, Heil-bloop."

---

As The most serene republicans so succinctly put it, it's not exactly difficult to NOT look like and sound like a Nazi. So if you do check all of those boxes before you even open your mouth, you are rather fairly put into the "suspicious" category, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, what would any reasonable person make of a nation named "The Jimmy Crows of Krazy Kotton Kingdom" with a flag that was a noose and a white pointy hat, and who kept saying how terms like "racist" and "white supremacist" were meaningless, and that they had nothing to apologize for, and how "controversy is my middle name"? At some point, you have to just call it like you see it.

And, to paraphrase Ziotah and Riverside, it's kind of unrealistic to think that in the name of inclusivity or transparency, such people who are clearly just out for a reaction can be sort of quietly ushered to a seat, and that they will sit there. I would have 1000x more patience with someone who is just an overeager kid with a good heart but who is spammy or silly. Overeager kids can become excellent members of the community, but Nazis? No. Racists? No. Trolls who want to troll for the sake of turbulence and attention? No. GTFO.

And Cuillin, I just want to say that while your apology is well-intentioned and well-received, there is nothing wrong with telling someone who gives every indication of being pro-Nazi to go to hell. They're already there, whether they realize it or not. You're not in the wrong. :-)

---

The most serene republicans: I've been meaning to say it for days, but I've been looking at Recife, and it's a beautiful city that you've got! Onshore breezes from the East and the South, it seems, and absolutely beautiful scenery and whatnot. I could not make it in the interior of your state, where it gets much hotter and seems rather drier (and even the coast is far beyond what I am used to, admittedly), but according to Google Street View in random places, it looks like a very nice place to be.

Just as a point of comparison: according to a weather and climate website that I look at, it says that your city is normally between 23C and 31C throughout the year, and rarely below 21C or above 34C, whereas my little town is normally between -8C and 27C throughout the year, and rarely below -15C or above 30C. I could not live without winter, haha. It got up to 22C today and as I went the short distance from the house to the vehicle in the afternoon sun, it occurred to me that I already kind of miss the cold weather.

Effazio, Murmuria, Einswenn, Kawastyselir, and 12 othersCuillin, Mount Seymour, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, Terrabod, The void territories, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, The most serene republicans, and Wooderland country

The most serene republicans

Ruinenlust wrote:The most serene republicans: I've been meaning to say it for days, but I've been looking at Recife, and it's a beautiful city that you've got! Onshore breezes from the East and the South, it seems, and absolutely beautiful scenery and whatnot. I could not make it in the interior of your state, where it gets much hotter and seems rather drier (and even the coast is far beyond what I am used to, admittedly), but according to Google Street View in random places, it looks like a very nice place to be.

Just as a point of comparison: according to a weather and climate website that I look at, it says that your city is normally between 23C and 31C throughout the year, and rarely below 21C or above 34C, whereas my little town is normally between -8C and 27C throughout the year, and rarely below -15C or above 30C. I could not live without winter, haha. It got up to 22C today and as I went the short distance from the house to the vehicle in the afternoon sun, it occurred to me that I already kind of miss the cold weather.

Recife is, indeed, really beautiful. And as someone who has lived in multiple capitals/metropolitan urban zones in Brazil, I can say it is quite special in many ways. I really like to walk around the older neighborhoods because a lot of the old architecture is still intact, and these old houses/buildings are still painted in very vivid colors like they were in the 17th/18th century, so it's really eye candy. São Paulo is often a claustrophobic grey distopia, Brasilia is very beautiful but somewhat artificial and Rio is... Well... O Morro não tem vez. They're all beautiful in their own ways but Recife is something else.

By the by, the wind and humidity + winds make these temperature changes feel a bit amplified. When it's colder and you have that nice breeze it feels more like 18C if you're lucky, and when it's hot you want to die.

And going to the interior of Pernambuco you'll end up reaching the Sertões. They are drier, yes. In fact, they usually look like deserts, although they're very far from being that. The name of the type of vegetation there translates to "white forest" in an old indigenous language. I've had the oportunity to see what the Sertões look like after rain, however, and it's an enormous difference. It really does look like a forest, except a green one this time. I imagine this is something like what happens in temperate climates during spring, except you can't really predict when it's gonna rain in these regions.

There's an old saying that goes "The Sertão is only dead for strangers", which basically means that if you think that's a desert, then you have no clue where you are. That part of the state is actually why I'm so adamant to include some representation of the different types of forests in the new Forestian CoA, because it's just not fair to ignore places like that.

Which, by the way, Mount Seymour are you still interested in doing the redesigns w/ me?

Ordealius, Alcantaria, Mount Seymour, Atsvea, and 7 othersRuinenlust, Lord Dominator, Terrabod, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, and Wooderland country

Well, 60 new posts huh? RMB must've been busy..

The most serene republicans the dum sticker introduces just the perfect amount of chaos into the gorgeous flag. I love it <3

Atsvea, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, Terrabod, and 5 othersMiddle Barael, Nation of ecologists, Garbelia, Difinbelk, and The most serene republicans

The most serene republicans

Simbolon wrote:Well, 60 new posts huh? RMB must've been busy..

The most serene republicans the dum sticker introduces just the perfect amount of chaos into the gorgeous flag. I love it <3

The carefully thought out flag combined with the dum sticker is also a pretty good indication of my personality on the RMB.

Atsvea, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, Simbolon, and 3 othersMiddle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and Garbelia

The most serene republicans wrote:Which, by the way, Mount Seymour are you still interested in doing the redesigns w/ me?

Yes, absolutely! Any chance we could talk on Discord? I think it'd be easier for sharing images back and forth than telegrams.

Atsvea, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, Middle Barael, and 3 othersNation of ecologists, Garbelia, and The most serene republicans

The most serene republicans

Mount Seymour wrote:Yes, absolutely! Any chance we could talk on Discord? I think it'd be easier for sharing images back and forth than telegrams.

I've been looking for a reason to start using discord, so sure!

To be honest it crossed my mind that Chan island had sent that nation here as a test to see how we would deal with the situation. I didn't feel like being the rookie to wrongfully shoot someone their first day on the job [roll Training Day clips].
I think proper procedure was followed. However like Novian Republics explained the actions undertaken are not completely in line with our motto "Forest welcomes all nations...." and more or less means considering article 2.1 of the constitution where it says "...All ideologies, government types, and perspectives are welcome in Forest so long as they are not purposefully hurtful or offensive to other nations in Forest in a serious way" that we consider Nazism or more broadly fascism as a purposefully hurtful or offensive ideology that we do NOT welcome in Forest.
Secondly this nation was found guilty by association. It didn't actively and directly admit to support that ideology. So I feel we kind of acted like the Spanish Inquisition here. Nonetheless I still believe the right course of action was undertaken and this nation was a "bad fit" based on its NS history and its rather carefree use of controversial symbolics and it would have let to further conflict down the road.

EDIT: How do you see what regions a nation has been in?

EDIT 2: Have we already "formally" informed our embassy regions about Chan island winning the Forest Keeper election?

Chan island, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Novian Republics, and 3 othersMiddle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and Difinbelk

Ownzone wrote:

I think proper procedure was followed. However like Novian Republics explained the actions undertaken are not completely in line with our motto "Forest welcomes all nations...." and more or less means considering article 2.1 of the constitution where it says "...All ideologies, government types, and perspectives are welcome in Forest so long as they are not purposefully hurtful or offensive to other nations in Forest in a serious way" that we consider Nazism or more broadly fascism as a purposefully hurtful or offensive ideology that we do NOT welcome in Forest.
Secondly this nation was found guilty by association. It didn't actively and directly admit to support that ideology. So I feel we kind of acted like the Spanish Inquisition here. Nonetheless I still believe the right course of action was undertaken and this nation was a "bad fit" based on its NS history and its rather carefree use of controversial symbolics and it would have let to further conflict down the road.

This individual...
A) Uses a widely known Neo-Nazi symbol on their flag, which was also specifically the symbol used by the group within the Nazi party responsible for racial purity within the SS.
B) Declared his "like" of a well-known Neo-Nazi phrase, which was also used regularly by the Nazi party, and was the motto of the Hitler Youth.
C) Was resident in an actively Nazi region, which continues to engage in Neo-Nazism.
D) His name is literally "Heill Blod" - take your pick of languages, but it basically translates as "pure blood" or "intact blood"
E) Above all, they spent their entire time here downplaying the evils of Nazism, and avoiding any questions about any of the above with whataboutism and counter-accusation.

So on Holocaust Remembrance Day, a guy named "pure blood" shows up from a Nazi region, flying the symbol of the Nazis responsible for racial purity, claiming allegiance to the motto of the Hitler Youth, and defending Nazi activity.

Border control is none of my business any more, but this individual's immediate removal was absolutely correct and in line with our Constitution. As a couple others have said - as a person with decades of experience moderating online communities, people like that are extremely recognizable. They are troll provocateurs, who live to skirt the edge of "rules" in order to disrupt order and spout their hate, with the intent that when the rules are then applied to them they can scream that it's you, not them, who is being intolerant. Nazis and Nazism are absolutely and purposefully hurtful and offensive, to literally any thinking human. Period.

Nation of ecologists wrote:I plan on including, detailing and noting all major and not so major ideologies that I consider green. I've notified around 15 so far.

Don't forget eco-socialist-otterism! And yes, proper procedure was definitely followed with the troll. While I believe we should have banjected as soon as we saw all the Nazi stuff, rather than feeding it, I understand that Forest is more inclusive and less used to trolls.

Garbelia wrote:...otterism! ....

Never heard of this term before. Does it relate in any way to a certain semi-aquatic friend of ours?

Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and 1 otherGarbelia

Is there a written dispatch or page that mentions Forest RMB ettiquette? I only know about the explicit double posting rule because I've seen others get warned about it. Is there somewhere I can send new nationstates to get them up to speed, like a "READ THIS FIRST" dispatch?

Thank you!

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