«12. . .2,2152,2162,2172,2182,2192,2202,221. . .2,5112,512»
I decided not to go into the issue last week, but this week the news is full of stories, Roborian of why Fox News can fairly be said to be a thoroughly anti-Trump outlet. So I just thought I'd return to point that out.
Fox News... anti-Trump? I seem to remember hearing that they'd been getting rid of anyone critical of Trump.
You ever just realize your nation went from being a small little wimpy thing one day and the next day it has 3 billion people and so many policies you don't bother reading them all?
Horatius Cocles, Phydios, and Slavic lechia
Hello guys, I’ve updated the stocks. Make sure to renew your investments and anyone wishing to join, please let me know, the more the merrier. To invest, tm me or tag me in a message your investment towards who and preferably how much, you can invest into your own companies if you want. I’ve now introduced new things to the stock market, and they’re quite a word full, so I have them in spoilers for people who want to get past that rubbish without scrolling for eons.
CELEBRATING 1000 READS!
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TRADING FLOOR | DATA | CURRENT INVESTMENTS | SHOP | OWNED SHARES | SHARES ON SALE/IPOs | BANKS | COMPANY AWARDS | COMPANIES ON SALE | FORMER COMPANIES | COUNTRY PROFILES | IRPSFSM or IRSFADM INVESTMENTS
The San Juarez Stock Exchange in San Juarez, PPPPCC
Megasoft (Plus Nova Imperii) - 227K +21K
Genesis Space Tech (The Rouge Christmas State) - 85K -18K
Urukian Computers Co. (Urukian) - 150K +7K
Movey Tech (Moveyrsearlandez) - 109K -15K
Roder (Otterse) - 110K -13K
Mahjanji (Indoinastan) - 177K +3K
GovernmentAndy Inc. (Isolationstan) - 138K +3K
Mecham (Isolationstan) - 144K +8K
The Twitter (Mukh) - 128K +2K
Tokyo Novum Space Tech (Novos romanos) - 148K +3K
Data Corp (The Rouge Christmas State) - 88K -18K
Regal Infotech (Port ashley) - 71K -18K
Annoying Discord Bots (Arcane the bot) - 126K +2K
MegaBit (Edington) - 109K -7K
Emporious (Novos romanos) - 142K +4K
Genos-Aelia company (Romaniche) - 188K +30K
The Duke National Bank (The Rouge Christmas State) - 52K -18K
Pankki Aussandri (Aussandries) - 108K +8K
Sheffield Preudential Bank (Port ashley) - 32K -18K
Pan-Caribbean Bank (Port ashley) - 26K -18K
Natona Banca de’Belac (The belacian states) - 114K +13K
Searland Stock Exchange (Moveyrsearlandez) - 67K -15K
Zhest Exchequer (Indoinastan) - 126K +3K
Gazprombank (Primorski Krai) - 103K +5K
SpanaBank (El Spana) - 150K +8K
jetBank (The belacian states) - 113K +13K
Xavier Manufacturing (The Rouge Christmas State) - 44K -18K
Urukian Arms Industry (Urukian) - 103K +7K
Soria Co. (Sorianora) - 123K +11K
Aussandries Arms (Aussandries) - 90K +9K
FN (Belned) - 106K +17K
RAPNI (Romaniche) - 142K +26K
Imperial Arms (Puppet scp fuadation) - 88K -15K
The Rifle From The Red (Commie tebit) - 48K -13K
German Austrian Arms Manufacturing (The greater german austrian empire) - 105K +5K
NRAP (Novos romanos) - 109K +8K
The Golden Weapon (The rome empire) - 97K +2K
Pewds Arms (Pewds supporter) - 45K -21K
Vegetarian Light Armaments (Democratic republic of nothingness) - 102K +1K
Rajputana Rifles (Republic of rajputana) - 106K +2K
Carthage and Co (Carthaginian civilization) - 94K +2K
BFP (Belned) - 118K +13K
تصنيع اذرع الشمس (Urukian) - 130K +13K
Mosin and Avtomat Armory (Primorski Krai) - 104K +5K
Guns For Freedom (Legionarya) - 148K +26K
Tengri Seraphim (Khazar lechia) - 78K -9K
Stavanger Space Tech (Urukian) - 113K +9K
Urukian Space Repair Service (Urukian) - 105K +8K
U2 Space (Phoenix city of fire) - 110K +2K
Young Industries Civilian Aeronautics Division (Young industries) - 99K +1K
Tokyo Novum Space Industries (Novos romanos) - 111K +5K
The Rare Old Mountain Dew (Aussandries) - 60K +9K
Roma-Soda (Romaniche) - 93K +24K
Ecchi-Cola (The Strangers Club) - 70K +14K
Par Biir (The belacian states) - 61K +12K
Meninas Capitalistas (Ofiussia) - 28K +3K
Roma-Nike (Romaniche) - 178K +26K
Strange-Mart (The Strangers Club) - 176K +16K
JP Capitalista (Novos romanos) - 141K +5K
Khan’s Milk Farm (Khazar lechia) - 28K -6K
Romanichean Cheese (Romaniche) - 89K +24K
Tillamook Cheese (Isolationstan) - 62K +9K
Transvaal Dairy (Wabobania) - 39K +1K
Raja Panner Curry (Indoinastan) - 60K +4K
Puic Cheese (Carthaginian civilization) - 40K +1K
La Branzika (Legionarya) - 92K +24K
Khan’s Personal Fields (Khazar lechia) - 56K +6K
Faster Growth (Otterse) - 35K -9K
NR Agriculture (Novos romanos) - 62K +4K
Sodrugestvo (Primorski Krai) - 63K +7K
Sun Pharma (Port ashley) - 13K -18K
University Medicine (Hopal) - 64K +2K
G Pharmaceutics SRL (Gavraska) - 66K +9K
Cambium Aerospace and Trucks (Port ashley) - 23K-18K
Bunker-Apparatus (Koedric) - 79K +10K
Imperial Armed Defense (Puppet scp fuadation) - 69K -7K
The Red China Army (Commie tebit) - 33K -12K
Golden Wall (The rome empire) - 78K +2K
UAC (Primorski Krai) - 76K +7K
Scandia Automobiles (Port ashley) - 21K -18K
Satirop (Phoenix city of fire) - 81K +3K
Cars and Stuff (New cica) - 77K +1K
Belton Automotive (Isolationstan) - 86K +3K
Rebirth Motors (Rebirth Island) - 74K +1K
Henry Ford (Legionarya) - 88K +22K
Belac Bíçiclas (The belacian states) - 82K +9K
H Bikes (Hopal) - 61K +2K
Urukian Minerals Production (Urukian) - 207K +26K
Novos Romanos Minerals Ltd (Novos romanos) - 182K +4K
Cratersville Mining Ltd (Isolationstan) - 178K +6K
visitBelac (The belacian states) - 130K +13K
Imagine Indoina (Indoinastan) - 118K +3K
TravelDumb (Dumb country) - 96K
Ugosalinese Casinos (Ugosal) - 116K +4K
Cykas ke liye Kazino (Indoinastan) - 118K +3K
The Rising Sun (The Strangers Club) - 134K +13K
Viking Studios & Dark House Films (El Spana) - 88K +4K
Belac Film Company (The belacian states) - 93K +11K
Romanichean Festives Stock (Romaniche) - 76K +16K
Flex Seal Family of Products (Swiftlandian Peoples Republic) - 206K -3K
River Styx (Draconovox) - 148K +23K
NR Slaves INC (Novos romanos) - 82K +3K
Anime Production Center (Phoenix city of fire) - 78K +4K
Viva Studios (Latiouthel) 73K +4K
The Spaniard Woodstock (El Spana) - 91K +4K
Sam’s Sauce (Akumanga) - 43K +6K
Auchan (Primorski Krai) - 81K +5K
Amorix International (Ethics committee of the scpf) - 75K +4K
مذابح الشمس (Urukian) - 73K +14K
श्रेकवादी हिंदू धर्म और संथाल मंदिर of മെമ്മുകളും കമ്യൂണിസവും (Indoinastan) - 68K +3K
Virgin Group (A Memer) - 69K
THIS WEEK’S LOSSES: $414 Billion
THIS WEEK’S REVENUE: $759 Billion
THIS WEEK’S PROFIT: $345 Billion
TOTAL ALL TIME REVENUE MADE SO FAR: ~$106 Trillion
NATIONS INVOLVED: 57
REGIONS INVOLVED: 19
Aug 16. Aussandries into Aussandries companies, 1 month
Aug 22. The Strangers Club 2 billion into The Strange Mart, 1 month
Aug 25. Urukian 2 billion into Urukian companies +1 billion to Urukian National Gas and Urukian Minerals Co., 1 month
Aug 25. Draconovox 2 billion into Mecham (Isolationstan), 1 month
Aug 25. Draconovox 2 billion into Rapni (Romaniche), 1 month
Aug 25. Draconovox 2 billion into Tillamook Cheese (Isolationstan), 1 month
Aug 25. Draconovox 2 billion into Romanichean Cheese (Romaniche), 1 month
Aug 25. Draconovox 2 billion into Spanabank (El Spana), 1 month
Aug 26. The belacian states into The belacian states companies, 1 month
Aug 26. Legionarya 10 million into Legionarya companies, 1 month
Aug 26. Hopal 3 billion into University Medicine, 1 month
Aug 26. Gavraska 35K into Pristine Urukian Fishing Co., 1 month
Aug 26. Gavraska 1 billion into Gavraska companies, 1 month
Aug 29. The Strangers Club 500 million into MegaSoft (Plus Nova Imperii), 1 month
Aug 29. The Strangers Club 500 million into Anime Production Center (Phoenix city of fire), 1 month
Aug 29. Koedric into BFP (Belned), 1 month
Aug 29. Akumanga 500 million into Sam’s Sauce, 1 month
Aug 29. Urukian 1 billion into تصنيع اذرع الشمس, 1 month
Aug 29. The belacian states 500 million into Chipps Chips (Isolationstan), 1 month
Aug 30. Gavraska 500 million into Khan’s Personal Fields (Khazar lechia), 1 month
Aug 30. Gavraska 500 million into Golden Wall (The rome empire), 1 month
Aug 30. Gavraska 200 million into La Branzika (Legionarya), 1 month
Aug 30. Aussandries 1 billion+ into visitBelac (The belacian states), 1 month
Sep 7. Legionarya 200 million into Legionarya companies, 1 month
Sep 7. Romaniche 150 billion into Romaniche companies, 1 week
Sep 7. Romaniche 50 billion into Emporious (Novos romanos), FN (Belned), BFP (Belned), NRAP (Novos romanos), Guns for Freedom (Legionarya), JP Capitalista (Novos romanos), La Branzinka (Legionarya), 1 week
Sep 7. Plus Nova Imperii into Plus Nova Imperii companies, 1 week
Sep 7. Plus Nova Imperii into Sorianora companies, 1 week
Sep 7. Sorianora into Sorianora companies, 1 week
Sep 7. Sorianora into Plus Nova Imperii companies, 1 week
Sep 7. Koedric into Bunker Apparatus (Koedric) and FN (Belned), 1 week
Sep 7. The Strangers Club 5 billion into The Strangers Club companies, 1 month
Sep 7. The Strangers Club 2 billion into MegaSoft (Puppet States of Plus Nova Imperii), 1 month
Sep 7. The Strangers Club 2 billion into Anime Production Center (Phoenix city of fire), 1 month
Sep 7. The soldrania 100 million into Bitterlich (Sturengartz), 1 month (IRPSFSM Company Investment) - Company Ceased to Exist, Investment Firm Payed Back With the Company’s Remaining Value (4 Billion)
Pizza: Increases your companies’ investment deadlines by a month | Cost: 10,000 Stock Points | Renewal Cost: 1,500 Points (Must be paid within a month)
Totem of Undying: Restores a company below 3,000 points back to the stock market with an initial value of 5,000 points | Cost: 0 Points, Message or Telegram to Peepeepoopoocaca (No renewal required)
Chaos Emerald: Increases a company’s value by 10% each week | Cost: 25,000 Points | Renewal Cost: 3,000 Points (Must be paid within a week)
Scooby Snack: Gives you 1,000 free karma points every month | Cost: 5,000 Points | Renewal Cost: 1,000 Points (Must be paid within a month)
Draconovox: 15% Shares in Mecham (22K), Rapni (21K), Tillamook Cheese (9K), Romanichean Cheese (14K), and Spanabank (23K)
Sorianora: 10% Share in MegaSoft (23K)
Gavraska: 1% Share in Pristine Fishing Co. (760)
The Strangers Club: 15% Share in MegaSoft (34K), and Anime Production Center (12K)
Koedric: 10% Share in BFP (12K)
Romaniche: 20% Share in BFP (24K), Guns For Freedom (30K), FN (21K), Emporious (28K), NRAP (22K), JP Capitalista (28K), La Brazinka (18K)
The belacian states: 10% Share in Chipps Chips (10K)
Gavraska: 10% Share in Khan’s Personal Fields (6K), and Golden Wall (8K)
Gavraska: 5% Share in La Brazinka (5K)
Aussandries: 15% Share in visitBelac (20K)
Indoinastan: 5% Share in U2 Space (6K), Satirop (4K), and Anime Production Center (4K)
Koedric: 10% Share in FN (11K)
- 10% of jetBank (The belacian states)
- 15% of Par Biir (The belacian states)
- 4% of Belac Film Company (The belacian states)
- 8% of Belac Bíçiclas (The belacian states)
Here’s where companies who’s country owners have ceased to exist go to be hopefully bought by new countries and return to the stock market
- Wooloo, Arms Manufacturing Company, Former Owner: Wooloo-land, Value: 7K
- Ludwig and Beilschmit, Space Company, Former Owner: Gallar, Value: 95K
- Glorious Potatoes Inc., Agriculture Company, Former Owner: Of altonianic islands Value: 75K
- Haberlin, Military Aircraft Company, Former Owner: Sturengartz Value: 58K
- Brausewetter, Natural Gas Company, Former Owner: Sturengartz Value: 40K
- Sturencabel, Telecommunications Company, Former Owner: Sturengartz Value: 60K
- The Golden Hour, Gambling Company, Former Owner: Gallar Value: 108K
- Billy’s Chicken, Poultry Farms Company, Former Owner: Chicknland Value: 60K
Loans given out to:
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Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
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Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
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Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
Money deposited:
Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
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Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
Money deposited:
Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
Money deposited:
Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
Loans given out to:
Money deposited:
Current credit to loan ratio: 1 credit point for 100 stock points
COMPANY OF THE WEEK: Genos-Aelia company (Romaniche) - 158K
MOST VALUABLE COMPANY: Bing Software National (Of altonianic islands) - 362K
All of these companies are now currently in the Inter Regional Primary Stock and Financial Support Market (IRPSFSM)
- Gòngchǎn Baskets (Commie tebit)
- LS’s Bigmouth (CALLMEDADDYSTRATTON)
Plus Nova Imperii: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The Rouge Christmas State: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Urukian: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Moveyrsearlandez: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Otterse: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Indoinastan: Karma Multipliter: 1K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Isolationstan: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Mukh: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Novos romanos: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Port ashley: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Arcane the bot: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Edington: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Romaniche: Karma Multipliter: 15K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Callmedaddystratton: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Aussandries: Karma Multipliter: 3K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The belacian states: Karma Multipliter: 1K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Primorski Krai: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Sorianora: Karma Multipliter: 1K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Belned: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Puppet scp fuadation: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Commie tebit: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The greater german austrian empire: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The rome empire: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Pewds supporter: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Democratic republic of nothingness: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Republic of rajputana: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Carthaginian civilization: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Legionarya: Karma Multipliter: 9K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Khazar lechia: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Phoenix city of fire: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Young industries: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The Strangers Club: Karma Multipliter: 8K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Ofiussia: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Wabobania: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Koedric: Karma Multipliter: 1K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
New cica: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Rebirth Island: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Ugosal: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
El Spana: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Swiftlandian Peoples Republic: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Draconovox: Karma Multipliter: 15K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The corporate sectors: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Slavic lechia: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Latiouthel: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Akumanga: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Mindon: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Japanese ronald mc donald: Karma Multipliter: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Hopal: Karma Multiplier: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Gavraska: Karma Multiplier: 6K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Yes humans are recyclable: Karma Multiplier: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Ethics committee of the scpf: Karma Multiplier: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
The soldrania: Karma Multiplier: 1K Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
Dumb country: Karma Multiplier: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
A Memer: Karma Multiplier: 0 Points, Power Ups: 0, Partnership Bank: None
”why are u gae”
Speaking of production quality, I skimmed and skipped and sort-of listed through both Day 1s of the two conventions and I have to say the Republican one definitely outclassed the Democratic one. I especially thought the weird host thing at the start of the Democratic one was not well done, it was like I was watching a boring cable news show.
I was also surprised to see Cardinal Dolan, rare to have someone so notable lead the prayer.
I do not follow Fox too closely-I assume you are talking about Chris Wallace?
The RNC was actually quite a bit better than I expected it to be.
-I have not been a particular fan of Gaetz, but I thought his speech was remarkably good and concise, minus the genuflecting. (Same can be said about most of the night, really)
-Alvarez had probably the best speech of the night on emotional grounds, but it was a little jarring when they transitioned from that into an attack ad on Biden-perfectly fine to have the ad somewhere in the program, but the shift from an emotional defense of the goodness of America to a fairly typical political commercial killed some of the effect.
-Some of the more 'normal people' speakers sounded a bit awkward, but that's too be expected and I think it was a pretty good call to set things up as they did. I liked the line from Weinress that in socialized medicine "You don't beat the odds, you are the odds."
-Trump Jr. did better than I would have expected, more stable, pretty decent speech.
-Very much the opposite for Guilfoyle. You can't say she didn't have energy, but it came off so badly-I think one news source compared it to an overblown SNL in real life and that wasn't inaccurate, it seemed almost like self-parody and not the charming kind.
-I think Nikki Haley's speech was overrated. It was not bad, it was just fine, low-energy, perfectly decent, checked most of the boxes, but nothing really to stand out rhetorically/emotionally/verbally. A pretty clear 5 or 5.5/10, and I think she's getting hyped too much for it. Probably one of the weakest speeches of the night from a politician, though that's largely because most were above-average.
-The Voigt trailers were very good.
-I think the weakest parts were the Trump meeting with people segments, somewhat surprisingly so, actually, he can be decent enough with people but they really just came off as painfully awkward, especially with how well-done most of the speeches were, and the impression one got wasn't really great, that you get 2-3 speeches about how Trump is a superman who is going to save America and then he sort of stumbles through some awkward half-conversations.
And of course the media coverage was about as trash as expected. When Democrats say America is systemically racist and filled with hate, they're being bold and progressive. When Republicans say (repeatedly, multiple speakers used the phrase explicitly) that America is the greatest country in the world, but Biden is a threat it's all about "painting a dark future."
We simultaneously got criticism of the RNC for being too down and depressing (which it really was not) and criticism of Haley for daring to say that America is not a racist country, which shows about how even-keeled news sources were being about it.
The Gallant Old Republic and Lagrodia
I always bother to read them... I enjoy the game and am not here for a political facebook experience, but rather for the game...
Horatius Cocles and American antartica
Heya. I'm a feminist atheist, though I often thump people with books, so you might want to mind your manners.
I guess the key argument here is believing that human life has inherent value. That's the starting point really, and it's a tricky moral conundrum for a humanist to tackle, as we don't have recourse to talking about the soul or pointing about scripture. The question comes down to whether you, as a human being with your own human moral system, consider it okay to kill human beings.
The next step there is refining that moral system. If we say its NOT okay to kill human beings, or its only okay to human beings SOMETIMES, then the next questions are "what constitutes a human being?" and "when is it justifiable?"
To me, as a humanist and a doctor, I started with the second question. To me, killing is sometimes justifiable, but rarely so. There's cases that are clear cut to my morality, like I would kill an aggressor who was trying to kill my child, if that was the only way to definitively stop them. There's greyer cases, like I'd want to kill someone who had killed my child, if they were helpless in front of me, but I'd try to resist doing so for moral reasons. Then there's other end circumstances, like I definitely WOULDN'T want to kill a young kid who was singing a song I don't like. Likewise I wouldn't want to kill a child that was too expensive for me to raise.
When it comes to termination of pregnancy, the reasons for the killing are varied, from social convenience, to wanting nothing to do with the product of sexual assault, to serious medical conditions. The "pro-choice" position emphasises female bodily autonomy -- as in "her body, her choice" -- and seems to suggest that the moral value of that choice outweighs the moral prohibition against killing.
That brings us to question two. What is human? It's entirely arguable from a secular point of view that a sperm ain't human, and that an egg ain't human, and the monocellular zygote formed from the fusion of the two ain't human. Equally, there are many here who would mark that point of conception as something special, where human life truly begins. To many of us though, it's hard to think of two bits of matter being closer to each other counting as human while two bits of matter a micron apart aren't.
So it's up to you to say when you think human begins. For me, it's some time AFTER conception, for sure. But from a medical point of view I find it wholly unconvincing to say that a pregnancy at 24 weeks is not its own human being, separate from the mother. It's been demonstrated that babies removed ex utero in emergency circumstances can survive before that date, all the way back to 21 weeks and 5 days, and that limit isn't something defined by physiology, but rather by medical technology being limited. And a functioning nervous system and a recognisable "brain" exists before then, so there is thought. To me here it gets philosophically tricky. Do you need the capacity of self-awareness to have worth as life? If so, is an elderly person with severe dementia no longer human? Is an ant that knows that it exists more worthy than a fetus that does not?
As atheists, we don't have the liberty of turning to defined answers for this, you have to find your own moral code.
So my conclusion, personally, is this:
The words "pro-choice" are themselves problematic, as they imply that the only issue here is autonomy. Actually, the issue here is primarily about the life being ended, the justifications for doing that, and the point at which it becomes morally wrong to do so.
I am not convinced -- unlike many here -- that termination is ALWAYS wrong. Rather I think the vast majority of nations in this world are far too ready to allow termination without due consideration. I'm personally sure that at 8-10 weeks into gestation the foetus can be defined as a human being with human rights. He or she is not a fully developed adult, but then nor is a newborn baby, and we accord the same rights to babies as we do to adults. Indeed, a foetus inability to represent itself in argument, or to even look you in the eye and thus trigger parental protective instincts, means we have a GREATER moral responsibility to advocate on his or her behalf.
So to me, termination should be allowed if it happens in very early pregnancy (that is less than 8 weeks, possibly earlier), and if it is being done for a strong reason that goes beyond autonomy and family planning -- that is, the health of the mother, the health of the child, and so on. I definitely don't believe that a child being inconvenient to one's life plans is a sufficient justification to end the life of an unborn baby at 20 weeks gestation, when it almost certainly already has sapience, the capacity to feel pain, and true humanity.
At the same time I recognise there's more to family planning than convenience, and I recognise the strong correlation between women's rights and control over their own reproduction. So while I'm against casual termination, I'm for contraception, against forced marriage, for strong laws about consent, and for good sex education. I just think you can be a feminist while also being against casual termination, which a lot of people will try to lump together. I am a feminist. I am against casual termination.
To me, I'm not 100% with many of the right to life crew that reside here, but to me they are at least thinking about the moral issues whereas I find that many pro-choice individuals don't have strong moral reasoning, but rather just default to the position of the societal majority opinion. I don't mind where their morality comes from, be it Catholicism, or Islam or Humanism. The important thing is that everyone here has thought about the issue, and made a moral conclusion.
Like Terry Pratchett (another atheist) said for his dwarves: "Tak ask you to think any particular thing, he just asks that you think."
As to where your opinion ends up, I don't mind. But I hope I've helped lend some food for thought.
Horatius Cocles, Phydios, and Lagrodia
First And Only Archive:
Great post here. I wanted to make a couple of points:
While neither sperm nor eggs are human beings (or even alive), it seems to me that biology is pretty clear on when a human organism begin biologically- at conception. The zygote is indeed human.
"Biologically speaking, fertilization (or conception) is the beginning of human development. Fertilization normally occurs within several hours of ovulation (some authors report up to 24 hours) when a man’s sperm, or spermatozoon, combines with a woman’s egg, or secondary oocyte, inside a woman’s uterine tube (usually in the outer third of the uterine tube called the ampulla).
Fertilization begins with the spermatozoon contacting the cells surrounding the oocyte and ends with the mixing of the 23 male and 23 female chromosomes. The result is a single-cell embryo called a zygote, meaning "yoked or joined together," and it is the first cell of the human body." (https://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit1.php#fertilization)
It is indeed marvelous that a single-cell zygote would be so fundamentally different a moment after fusion then it was a moment before. But like the question "where does consciousness come from?", I can't give you a secular answer. All I can say is that fertilization isn't just about the sperm and egg being closer to each other- it's about them mixing into a single, entirely separate organism.
Check out Secular Pro-Life's page describing their stance on abortion. It's where I found the above resource, and I think you'd find it interesting. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
Excellent argument! We do indeed have an increased moral responsibility to defend those who cannot defend themselves.
"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves; ensure justice for those being crushed. Yes, speak up for the poor and helpless, and see that they get justice." - Proverbs 31:8-9 (NLT)
"Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to die; save them as they stagger to their death. Don’t excuse yourself by saying, “Look, we didn’t know.” For God understands all hearts, and he sees you." - Proverbs 24:11-12a (NLT)
To be honest, if you believe that abortion after 8 weeks is wrong, that makes you MUCH more pro-life than you may think. Lobbyists for the abortion industry have been pushing for abortion for any reason, up through birth. (Yes, through birth. I don't think you're in the US, but the present-day Democratic Party has opposed all legislation in Congress that would give the right to care to any baby born alive during a botched abortion, on the grounds of "this doesn't actually happen, and the real goal is to control women's bodies".) That makes the difference between your stance on abortion and RTL's stance on abortion look pretty slim.
You are badly misinformed. Probably tuning into the wrong news sources.
Many Democrats were complaining that the RNC had a better production quality, to the point of trying to turn it into a negative. Then you have DNC which duplicated people on screen clapping and had anemic lower ratings.
The way I look at it, if you can't even put together a convention, how are you going to manage an entire country?
I am talking about the entire network.
Lastly, Zogby poll has Trump sitting at a 52% approval rating, a first, including 36% approval among black Americans, and 37% among latinos. As I predicted, the pollster claims that continued riots are helping Trump with urban voters, a weak area for him, while coronavirus fears begin to recede.
Meanwhile, Biden actually loses support post-convention according to Rasmussen, virtually unheard of except for Mitt Romney in 2012. This is Biden's lowest poll result since the year began.
I'd have to see some awfully convincing examples for that, really. Wallace I have no problem with criticism of, I don't think it's Trump in particular, I think he's plainly to the left and has his 'objectivity' overrated as a result, but Carlson, Hannity, Ingraham, the big guns? I think one would be hard-pressed to describe them as even moderately anti-Trump, let alone thoroughly.
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On the topic of media bias, meanwhile, apparently Abby Johnson's official and clearly not-at-all-slanted descriptor per the NBC chyron is "Opponent of Abortion Rights"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgTysgaUwAA96Wo?format=jpg&name=900x900
At this point, I don't trust any national TV news network. They are all biased far past the point of usefulness- except to people who want to get their "Two Minutes Hate" in. (More like "Twenty-Four Hours Hate".)
But on the subject of Abby Johnson, she apparently supports "household voting", where each family gets only one vote. She said that in a godly family, the husband would have the final say on that vote. Not really sure what to even say about that idea. In a godly household, the husband is indeed the head, like the CEO of a company, and the wife is like the COO- just as important but accepting her husband's leadership. (This all assumes that the family isn't broken, like so many are today. There's nothing ungodly about being a single mom because your husband abused or abandoned you.) But voting is not a household matter. It is an individual matter and should remain so.
https://19thnews.org/2020/08/on-eve-of-suffrage-centennial-milestone-rnc-to-feature-speaker-supporting-policies-barring-women-from-voting/
It's always been odd sort of looking at the big networks from the outside, I never had cable growing up and have never subsequently bothered to get it, so I have zippo in the way of firsthand experience, only YouTube clips and reading about what is happening on the various shows. The amount of influence they have always has felt odd to me in both directions. On one hand, if you think of only a few million people of a few hundred million people watching the news every night, it seems surprisingly low, as such a small fraction of the populace. On the other hand, one could look at a "Ben Shapiro Destroys Abortion" video on Youtube that's picked up three million views over the last couple years and think "Wow, the message is starting to get out", and then realize that that sum total is less than just one random night of Tucker Carlson. Strange to look at from either side.
There was a study which, though the numbers sound high to me, looked at the creation of Fox and estimated that the network on its own shifted the Presidential vote 3.59 points to the GOP in 2004 and 6.34 points to the GOP in 2008. (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/8/16263710/fox-news-presidential-vote-study). Even if it is only a fraction of that, especially with the leftward curve of other mainstream media seeming to only accelerate, that's a heck of an effect.
I don't particularly trust Fox News on either a surface or core level, i.e. I don't particularly trust any claims they make without double-checking, and I'm not really convinced that they're truly conservative as an organization, modern woke capitalism has made me doubt if there's really any concentration of conservatism at the cosmopolitan level at all. That combined with a dislike of what seems to be increasing sensationalism has me as not their biggest fan, but I end up seeing them in a similar light as the NRA-probably corrupt, problematic in a number of ways, but with things as awful as they are, something you really can't afford to let go of when the alternative in the complete dominance of the other side.
One only has to take a look at any poll that gauges the knowledge of the American public on civics or modern political issues to see how thoroughly the media writ large (and the education system) have failed in even their basic responsibilities.
Just speaking from a cynical political perspective, that's a terrible idea for any pro-life voter to advocate. Married couples are significantly more conservative than single-person households on both partisan and ideology grounds. Trump won married couples by 8 points in 2016 and lost single people by 18, and there is a 14-point gap between married persons and single-never-married persons on supporting for abortion per the PRRI (divorced was in the middle). Going to household voting would mean essentially halving those more conservative/life-leaning votes while only marginally reducing the more left/abortion-leaning ones. Married couples nationally have the same support for abortion as the population of Oklahoma and South Carolina, single persons nationally have the same support as the population of New York and Washington. Not a shift that I would be happy with.
I can understand the concept behind it from a philosophical perspective (sort of a coverture 2.0 sort of thing), but not really a great idea, even outside of the political effects.
Something that I think would be interesting, not that I'd necessarily support it, but it would be interesting, is making voting dependent on being a member of an independent household, i.e., not living with your parents. Essentially, votes would not change depending on marital status, but someone still living under their parents' roof, or perhaps on their parents' under-26 healthcare, would be considered minors and non-voters. Or one could just simplify it as saying that children still claimed as 'dependents' do not yet get to vote.
I wouldn't support that. You've got plenty of young adults who are having trouble being self-supporting despite their best efforts.
It's largely structural, but with the exception of Ingraham, none of the prime time line up are actually pro-Trump. Hannity I have my doubts about his sincerity, but idk how much to put stock in rumors, especially from CNN sources. But even assuming he is, those are just two out of hundreds of employees who craft the daily narrative.
Fox is a pro-business channel, not a pro-Trump channel. They are dependent on him for ratings, but privately they despise him, and even sometimes not so privately, for instance Wallace, as you mentioned, Hume, Baier, formerly Meghan Kelly, Cavuto, and others. They have punished or ousted several pro-Trump personalities such as Pirro, Guilfoyle, Bolling, and Tantaros. They tried to tank his candidacy during 2016. They are barely covering the RNC, their polling arm is horrendously far left, even more so than CNN or NBC. Notice Trump knocks Fox's polls more than anyone else's. Also, Trump constantly criticizes Fox. If they are as pro-Trump as you say, why would he? Read comments on social media from viewers, you will see why I say they are biased against him.
They constantly run liberal or establishment talking points, are very much pro-big business and anti-worker. And they often fall into "woke capitalism", as Phydios mentioned.
I could go on and on, tracing every anti-Trump controversy they've had over the past 5 years. It's just a money game for them, there's no politcal agreement. Insiders say they only do what "conservative" spin they do because they're afraid of losing their viewers. Most of them are liberals living in Manhattan, NJ, or DC, and are not in the least bit conservative. It's just a cynical business calculation. Their owners are also massively pro-globalism and cheap labor. In many ways, Trump has done more damage to Fox's ideology than CNN's.
I wouldn't necessarily go for it either, more just mulling over it as what a more defensible argument for 'household' voting would be, on the basis of somewhat redefining the age of majority by level of independence rather than age, which I think is at least an interesting concept.
I would say that I definitely am a big supporter of settling an actual clear line for the 'age of majority', though, wherever it may fall, whether that means repealing the 26th Amendment or (though I cringe at the thought) lowering the voting age two years. Drinking, voting, the draft, smoking, buying a gun, consent, etc. ought to have a clear on/off year rather than the current silly patchwork, and states can lower their number for internal affairs if they wish it. (I'd also take out the federal limits on age for office along the same lines-if people want to vote for a 19-year-old President, people ought to be able to vote for a 19-year-old President).
Saying that Ingraham and Hannity are just "two out of hundreds of employees" is really crazy marginalization mate, they are two 'employees' who have nightly audiences in the millions, probably more influential than a teleprompter guy. If you are talking about "Hoax" for the CNN rumors, Stelter says outright that "the prime-time stars have all the power"
I think it's quite an exaggeration to slap a 'thoroughly anti-Trump' label there for occasional criticism, but even if that's accepted uncritically, you're not talking about the best-known and most-watched names at Fox, the best-known person in that list (Kelly) is the one who was critical of not receiving support from the network and left it.
Fox gave a 16-point advantage to Trump v. Clinton in favorability of coverage in 2016. The next closest network was a +20 point advantage to Clinton, CNN was +28 for her.
Trump criticizes everyone, mate, it's sort of his thing, he's very much shown how willing he is to go public with any critique on the whim of a perceived slight. Yet, even with that, how often do you see him just tearing down Carlson, Hannity, Ingraham? They're the front-and-center faces of Fox, and he seems to have very little problem with them.
Sampling methods for polling tell you nothing at all about the editorial direction of a network, unless you want to argue that the New York Times is a right-wing outlet. Fox News polls have tended left since before Trump, just like Rasmussen has trended right.
That, for one, you can name so many actively pro-Trump personalities at Fox seems to hurt the argument that the network is thoroughly anti-Trump and, for two, you're really going to attribute all those departures to some kind of anti-Trump conspiracy? Every one of the three on that list that left left amidst sexual harassment issues in three different cases, are all of those just fabrications, apparently? The only one who you could have any argument for suppression based on being pro-Trump is Pirro, and she's still on the air, the worst thing that happened to her was going off for two weeks after comments that had nothing to do with Trump, then they brought her right back on to continue being vocally pro-Trump-if they had this deep conspiracy against him, they would have tossed her then and there.
I don't necessarily disagree here. As I said above, (I think you confused my own 'woke capitalism' comment for Phydios), I'm not convinced that the movers and shakers at the base of Fox are conservative in personal belief-but as it stands, that's not near enough to consider the network as it ultimately presents itself in content as thoroughly anti-Trump. I think it may well be a cynical business decision, and that they may well hate Hannity and Carlson and Ingraham, but they continue to employ them regardless of that possibility, and that is what ultimately matters. Maybe they're just putting on a show, but people aren't watching the insides of their minds-they are watching that show.
The fact that Carlson's primary criticisms of Trump have been for not being anti-globalism enough is rather strong evidence that, whatever the beliefs of the executives at Fox, they're not carrying over to the big names of the network that people actually watch, big names that are in rhetoric and viewership the outright largest pro-Trump voices in the U.S.
It's really not. I'm talking about a network, you're talking about tv shows. Not the same thing.
In terms of their own shows, yes. But not at the network. Hannity can't tell the daytime news staff what to cover. Saying they "have all the power" is just false. They have leverage because they have high ratings, but that's not the same thing as power. Look at O'Reilly.
Constant, disgusted, visceral criticism. You say you don't really keep up at Fox, so I'm surprised you are trying to contradict me on what I've seen with my own eyes. If you can't peer behind those sneering, "professional" facades to see what they're really thinking, I can't help you. Their bias pervades everything they say, the questions they ask, the issues they decide to cover, the people they bring in to cover it. You're really looking at it from an incredibly superficial perspective. The DC studio crowd especially despise him and are not very good at hiding it.
Doesn't disprove what I said in the slightest. All you're doing is highlighting my point that they cover him for profit. But they tried to undermine him in the debates and it backfired. It's still crawling with anti-Trump phonies.
Not exactly a defense. "X criticizes people a lot, therefore the criticism is invalid," is a non sequitur, in my opinion.
He probably doesn't watch Carlson because he's boring and annoying. As I said, Hannity and Ingrapham are not the entire network, and more importantly they're not the news. Fox's coverage does not have anything to do with prime time "stars", which are there for entertainment value only.
I'm just going to leave this here...
WHAT??? XD "Active"??? They were fired! What on Earth, lol.
Yeah, Kimberly Guilfoyle TOTALLY deserved to be fired because she talked to her make-up artist about her own sex life. Yeah, totally not a pretext at all, lol. What a coincidence that all of these people just mysteriously had things that Fox ignored until they suddenly needed an excuse to get rid of them.
There was a huge backlash against them, so they had to bring her back. But she has said that she never knows if she's going to be on the air, they basically tell her week-to-week if she still has a job. They don't do that to any of the anti-Trump people.
Also, you really have to bend over backwards to try and ignore the fact that suppressing someone for being pro-Trump "has nothing to do with Trump". For someone who doesn't keep up with Fox, you sure are invested in defending them at all costs, even to the point of willfully ignoring every "bad" thing they do. I have a perfectly good explanation for the "good" stuff they do (greed, profit-motive), whereas for all the "bad" stuff, you just wave it away and dismiss it as nothing, which is normally what they pay people to do at CNN!
Ah, my mistake.
So if I choose to hire someone who is a communist, that makes me a communist too?
Two things:
1) Trying to draw a connection between Carlson's views and how the network is run is fallacious. He has no impact on the network, outside of his own show.
2) Carlson is not pro-Trump, he's a libertarian. He criticizes him constantly. There's very little overlap between them. Carlson is more interested in bashing Democrats than he is in praising Trump.
Phydios and Lagrodia
I agree with Roborian. Tucker Carlson may not be unanimously pro-Trump (I agree that he’s more interested in bashing Democrats), but he’s certainly not a libertarian.
Household voting as a concept is actually basically equivalent to how voting and traditional representation was conceived in the United States, Great Britain, and other organic democracies: only propertied men could vote and, the idea was, they we really voting on behalf of their household (and what propertied man back then didn't have a family?). I'll brutally paraphrase an English lawyer from the nineteenth century whose name I don't know and say: "In the eyes of the law the family is only one person and the husband is that person."
This idea came out of Christendom in the Middle Ages and its development is, in fact, entirely synchronous with the very development of true representative government (the Roman Republic was not representative). Roman and other ancient societies were extremely patriarchal: in Roman law the father/husband how power over life and death and all law in his house (which included his slaves, property, etc.). Christianity transformed this, slowly, all thanks to 1 Corinthians 11:3. Rather than lording over women, men were now their actually bodily representatives in a legal sense and charged with their protection and were liable for them and this, in course, included voting when that developed into a thing. It didn't stop their either: the bishop was the representative of his "bride" (the local church), the Pope was the representation of Peter, the legates were the representation of the Pope (and a bishop), mayors were the representation of their localities, princes and kings were the representation of their people, stewards were the representation of their rulers, & judges were the representation of justice. This was not in an abstract sense: they were flesh-and-blood, ordained and anointed and acclaimed stand-ins for whatever they presided over. Representation permeated every level of society and this carried over into the modern era in various forms, including it being the entire basis for why women couldn't vote. The breakdown of this concept of representation has, arguably, closely paralleled the rise tyranny in the modern world.
Make senseish maybe? Anyway, there we be substantial problems with implementing this to day, first and foremost because of how broken most families/households are and how utterly fragmented and "unreal" society has become. Perhaps now, at least, you see where the idea was coming from. For further context, the Catholics (especially the women thorough the Katholische Frauenbund) in Switzerland adamantly refused women's "sufferage" until 1971 (1991 in Appenzell Innerrhoden).
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