Post

The forest of aeneas wrote:

What would be even more amusing about that argument (if it wasn't as overused to justify LGBTphobia) is how sinners - not sins - go to Hell. So evidently, God doesn't even live by that argument.

This may be true for Protestantism (not Protestant, so my understanding is limited), so if that is what you're referring to, I'd be willing to deffer to your knowledge and agree that it's definitely paradoxical.

In terms of Catholicism though, there's a bit of a misunderstanding here that most people (Catholic included) fall into. Under Catholic theology, we are all sinners, so in that respect, sinners can go to Heaven or Hell. The differentiating factor between the two is whether or not forgiveness is asked for. As an all-loving God, anyone can receive forgiveness for any sin no matter what, as long as they are sincere in asking for it. That's a whole thing, and it's not directly relevant here, so I'm not going to elaborate. The point is that it's not whether or not one is a sinner, it's whether or not one is repentant for said sins. This also means that God doesn't send people to hell, rather that they choose it through a lack of repentance, but that's pretty semantic.

Of course, this frames being LGBTQ+ as a sin, which has it's own issues, but that fits better in the next bit I'll write out. Summary of that just to make sure it doesn't get lost is that LGBTQ+'ness isn't a sin, though some acts of it may be in some circumstances that no one can really concretely judge except God. Even then, not all sins mean eternal damnation, and forgiveness is always still available. So it only does harm to be bigoted.

The forest of aeneas wrote:

What's also even more strange is how, since being LGBT is not a choice, God would create people as LGBT and then send them to Hell for that? If gay sex or transitioning or same-sex marriage or whatever was actually a sin, I really don't think God would create people to be inclined to those '''''sins'''''.

Sorry if it feels like I'm being pedantic here, but I think the framing of how LGBTQ+ people exist is important here. As both a Catholic and a now 3rd year Biology major (passed all my chem courses!), LGBTQ+'ness is largely a result of environmental factors. God doesn't necessarily "create" people individually, it's more an expression of free will through the course of evolution that results in individual phenotypes, and it'd be kinda hard to have a "gay gene" for lack of a better term. If there was a gene that made people want to engage in homosexual behavior rather than heterosexual behavior, it'd probably die in a generation or two, as homosexual behavior does not result in the passing on of genes. Even if such a gene was recessive, meaning it could be passed on, it'd be gradually lost over time as it is still selected against, it would just take much longer. That's before taking into account how such a gene, by nature of what genes do, would have to be exceptionally complicated and fragile, making creation by mutation very hard to do.

Really, very little human behavior is genetic. Most brain connections are created after birth, and while some mental genetic conditions exist, they are usually a result of common errors during the creation of gametes (sperm and egg), which doesn't apply here. Even genetic dispositions only increase the probability of environmental factors causing something, which still involves the surrounding environment.

So yeah, you are right that being LGBTQ+ is not a choice, but it's not a "God created them" type situation, as believing as much would either undermine genetics or theology (as in, to believe God controls all environmental factors violates free will). As such being LGBTQ+ is not a sin in itself, but under current teachings, acts pertaining to it can be depending on specifics.

Moreover, the point isn't really that important in my opinion. LGBTQ+ stuff is still pretty new in the modern cultural consciousness, and Church teachings can evolve with the world. I'm not going to bank on this being the case, but I don't think we (as Catholics) can ever truly declare anything that causes no harm to one's self or others a mortal sin, but that's just in my opinion. Please don't think I'm talking on behalf of the entire Church, I'm too dumb for them to let me do that.

But all that to say whether or not LGBTQ+ behavior is a serious enough sin to warrant hell, even in the absence of repentance, is something I'm not really convinced of. A sin of that type is known as a mortal sin, and it has three requirements. It has to be a serious matter, done with the knowledge that it is wrong, and with full consent in the activity. The second and third are conditional, so not too important here, but whether or not it's a grave matter is contentious, and I'm not confident in my ability to say, though it feels like it's probably not to me. Even if it is, forgiveness is still available.

Really, when it comes down to it, it's all about a relationship with God. You can't get to heaven by just strictly following rules, so there's no reason to blindly enforce said rules. Humans are beings of limited intelligence, and there's no nuance in rules for real world situations. I'm not confident in declaring anything someone else does a sin unless it causes undue harm to another being, so I'm absolutely not going to do so categorically. God doesn't act as a lawyer, so if someone has a good relationship with God, nothing else matters, and if they don't believe in God, then the whole thing matters even less. In both cases, me being judgmental, or believing someone's actions to be a sin, or making broad claims about the morality of real people, only does harm. The Church teaches love and acceptance towards everyone, so that's what I'll live out.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as argumentative or bigoted. As I've said, religious people have a reputation for both of those, for good reason, and I'm just trying to concisely express why bigotry should not be a part of Catholicism.

Also, good source Station 8. I've just skimmed it, and it seems pretty in line to what I'm trying to get across. It does make the point that the only mentions of homosexual behavior involve other condemn-able things being done at the same time, which I think supports my belief that homosexuality itself isn't a mortal sin. It does feel pretty Protestant though, so I can't say it's entirely what I believe without a closer reading and a lot of reflection.